How Love at Home Shapes Faith That Lasts With Joe Ayoub

Welcome to Orthodox Christian Parenting, where we bring timeless wisdom into the everyday chaos of raising kids. I'm Michelle Moujaes, and I'm so glad that you're here. Today's episode is extra fun for me because I get to talk with a really good friend of mine and a literal rock star. Joe Ayoub is a native of Grand Rapids, Michigan now living in New York, but he's also been a part of my Los Angeles church family for as long as I can remember. The first time I saw him, I'll admit it, I kinda thought he was a little dangerous.

I mean, like, actually, he had this big old wild hair and this long black trench coat, and I was convinced that he had come into our church to cause some trouble. But it turns out the only trouble that Joe actually causes is on stage with his bass guitar. Like, he's one of the busiest and most talented basses in LA and New York, and he appears weekly on shows like American Idol or The Kelly Clarkson Show or even over the last twenty years. I mean, he's played all over the world with stars like Shakira and Miley Cyrus or Enrique Iglesias or Jewel, Melissa Etheridge. I mean, you name it.

There's so many more. But the part that I love most and why I want you to meet him is that despite living the rock star life, Joe is one of the most humble, God glorifying, and churchgoing men that I know, no matter where he is in the world. I always joke that if my husband, Walid, and I had another baby, Joe would totally be a top contender for Godparent. I mean, he's just such a God glorifying man. Today, I can't wait to hear from Joe and to learn about how he does stay so close to the church, even when his career is immersed in a world that doesn't really reflect Christian values all the time.

And Joe's story isn't just about fame or music. It's really about faith and family and the practical ways his parents helped him stay rooted in the church no matter where life took him. We're gonna dig into exactly what they did and how they did it so that you can take these lessons and apply them in your own family if you find them helpful. Hi, Joe. Welcome.

Thank you for having me, Michelle.

I'm happy that you're here with us. And I'm really excited for people to hear about your story because I think you have such a unique story, one that many of us don't have. Tell us a little bit about kind of your upbringing in the faith. What was that like in your household?

We're very orthodox household. My parents were devout orthodox Christians, and they brought us up in the church. There definitely was a a freedom of thought and a freedom of expression. I wouldn't say they were particularly strict. With that being said, it doesn't mean that they were loose by any stretch of the imagination, but that there was a lot of love and a lot of freedom, a lot of openness to sort of talk about anything we wanted to talk about.

I love that.

But church on Sunday was a guarantee. That was a nonnegotiable. Nonnegotiable. We were going to church every Sunday. At that time, it's funny.

I think about it a lot now, like going to Vespers or Orthros or we rarely did that. And I think a lot of the churches didn't even have matins. You know what I mean?

Like the full liturgical life.

Yes. The full cycle. I think it was just a different time. Same with, like, the chanting. There wasn't a ton of Byzantine chant for us because there weren't books available.

There were there wasn't you know, kinda only knew what they knew from the tradition or what they brought back maybe from The Middle East or wherever they were from. Or we I was actually baptized in a Greek church. We grew up in a Greek church until we moved to Michigan where there was an Antiochian church there. So and we're Lebanese. My brother and I are a 100% Lebanese, both parents.

Dad was an immigrant. Mom's mom was an immigrant. So

Okay.

Yeah. So anyway, back to your question. Sorry. I digressed a bit. But liturgy was a nonnegotiable.

Sunday school was a nonnegotiable, and the Lenten services were nonnegotiable. So it just felt very much a part of life. It was a part of the cycle of our life.

And so outside of that, were there any practices that your parents kind of drilled in on that helped you kind of have that rhythm or that cadence? I mean, I know I have experienced what you did as well. Like, I don't even think growing up my church had to be honest with you. And we we used to do. You know what we used to do?

So foreign to us now, but we used to have certain churches that would do group confession. Like, you just go up for absolution and, like, there'd be 50 people and the soul would come out. Yeah. It's very, very different. But what I do remember is in my household growing up, we had lots of regular prayer times.

We had lots of like our social circle and our community was really grounded in the parish community. Were there things like that that your parents actually made a part of your life along with liturgy or the Lenten services?

Oh, yeah. Absolutely. I think I mean, the big thing is just the community, the people who were around. Yeah. You know, whenever there was a barbecue or we had people over, we went to other people's homes.

It was always sort of within that orthodox community. And for me

That was your people.

Yeah. It's interesting being, I mean, essentially, first generation on our dad's side, second on our mom's. It's funny how the ethnicity and orthodoxy sort of blend into this thing that as a kid, you know you're different. Right? We knew we were different, but they kind of blend together where our our ethnicity and and the or, you know, our religion, orthodoxy sort of blended to be this thing that sort of made us other a little bit.

You know? Yeah. Or unique.

I get that. Yeah. Let me ask you then. So at any point, was there this kind of defining moment where it became less about what our family does and really more something interesting to you? So for example, I know that my faith really became more of my own when I went to college.

That's when I really started to kind of read a little bit more, study a little bit more and not just we use this term around here, borrow the faith of our parents. Was there a time when it became something more personal to you? And when was that?

Sort of think of it in two stages. The

first Oh, good.

The first stage is when I'm a musician and when I started playing music, I inevitably I grew up in Michigan, and our town had a lot of churches, and a lot of the other musicians I made friends with would play in their church. So like I played in a gospel band for a long time. You know, in high school, we had, like, young life and things like that. So there was music around, but, obviously, there's no instrumentalist in the Orthodox Church. So I ended up being in these sort of other denominations of Christianity that were that had music in it.

So I was around it a lot. And I was really into it. Like, I loved it. I loved gospel music. I was, like, really taken in by gospel music, and I just thought it was beautiful and and very charismatic.

But during that time, there were a lot of things that I heard in churches that I struggled with and were a little bit different than what I was used to growing up in the Orthodox Church. And I think in those moments there were beautiful moments too. I don't wanna take anything away from the positive that was there too. But there were Yeah.

Sure.

There was a lot of maybe overexplaining, and there's a there's a very legalistic approach where it opened my eyes to realize what this gem I was born into held that wasn't anywhere else. You know what I That's right. So that was a big moment. And then I think even then my through college, my church attendance was very poor. I know this these are my confessions.

It was poor. I mean, think that's no. No. I think a lot of us feel that way. I mean, we always laugh.

I actually didn't have that opportunity because what I missed two weeks of church in a row. And when my mom found that out, she said you have a choice to make. You either come home or you get your butt in church because I'm not paying for school for you to be a heathen. And I was like, what? Food actually was a gift because it is so hard when you're on a college campus.

I mean, it's not part of the norm that people get up and go to church on Sundays. I mean, I guess some college campuses, but I I think that's a very common experience in college.

Yeah. I moved to LA soon after college. And k. Being in LA for a bit and completely being sort of isolated out there, I think in those moments, and in in, I would say, in difficult times where you're not

sure where

to grasp onto, I think that's what really brought me back into the church.

So I wanna just get granular for just a minute. So your parents gave you freedom and allowed you to kind explore and have your own thought freedom and, you know, connect with them about issues, things, but in an environment of love. K? So then still being engaged in the church, you came out, but maybe a little less engaged. You came out to Los Angeles pursuing a career in music, and that became kind of the safe place because it was kinda isolating.

Tell me about, your experience in the music industry. And just to tee you up a little bit, one of the things that I find so fascinating about you is that you are literally on tour with major rock stars. And so, like, I know we were in The Middle East one time and you're like, hey, I'm here with Shakira if you guys are free or, you know, you're touring with Melissa Etheridge or Enrique Iglesias, whoever it is, American Idol. Mean, the list goes on and on of the artists that you've been able to perform with. But, I mean, there had to be a moment where you were like, well, this isn't really the Orthodox vibe.

Is that fair to say?

I don't know that it would be unique to any secular job. I don't to be honest

Tell me about that. Tell me. That's really helpful.

Tell me. Actually, to take it a step further, I don't think it's eve even that unique to growing up in public school

Okay.

Where, yeah, you're working along with or studying along with a majority of people that don't share the same faith as you. So I don't know if it's that that much more extreme doing it while touring or in the music business or, you know, working at the post office. I don't really know what having a corporate job, let's say, looks like, but

So let me tell you, I'm making an assumption. Okay. I'm making an assumption that I mean, you're on a stage in front of 50,000 people and then I mean, there is a bit of power that comes with that. You know, you get access to all sorts of things that are probably a little bit more I'll use the word aggressive. I don't know what else to say.

Than you might see at the post office. Is that fair?

I don't know.

Like, I have I have this vision of, like, substances and groupies.

Oh, okay.

But, like, how do you navigate that when it's all around you? And, like, I would also make an assumption, and please correct me if I'm wrong, but I imagine that people don't stop touring so they can make it to liturgy on a Sunday. I feel like you've done such an incredible job of making that, a continuing priority. Because even when you're on tour, I know you've told me, you find a church. Or we'll see you here at Saint Michael where we attend church and you're chanting, but then you run out right before coffee hour because you gotta go to the American Idol set.

So how how have you navigated those kind of situations when you may be the solo guy on set doing that or on tour doing that?

Most often, it has been met not with disdain, but with Okay. With with with curiosity. The big thing is I, you know, I grew up crossing myself before I eat.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

And that always sparks

just Conversation.

Massive conversation of, like, what is that?

Wait. What did just do?

Yeah. Yeah.

Do you what do you do? Yeah. Do you explain? Do you take a minute to evangelize, or do you just

You'd know. I mean, I usually just I mean, if someone has a question, I'll answer depending on what the question is. Or some people like to go deep. Some people just make a joke about it. You know what I mean?

I'm pretty easygoing, and I have thick skin. So that's probably helped me a lot over the years

Helpful for feeling

super isolated. I have this relationship with friends that, like, if you get to the point where you can poke fun of the the differences, it's a good place to be. It's not a bad place to be. Because then then we're comfortable with with each other, and then we can have a conversation. Yeah.

Most often, it's like, what? You went to church? Like because, you know, people get to the bus or whatever. They're like, what did you do today? Oh, I found this cool coffee shop down the street.

You know? Oh, I've I've found a Antiochian church that wasn't too far and went, and they're like, oh, that's interesting. So I think That's so fun. Yeah. And I think the cool thing about being in these musical situations is I think the assumption is either you're religious or you're not, or either you're this or either you're liberal or you're not, or you're conservative or you're not.

But there are all kinds of kinds. So everyone's a little weird. Everyone's a little kooky. Everyone has their own thing. I mean, there is disdain towards religion.

I don't know if it's good or bad, like, Lord have mercy. But a lot of times, I found myself sort of having a conversation in about maybe what they understand as Christianity, which is most often Western evangelical Christianity. And sort of, like, explaining that orthodoxy there's a lot that they have in common, but there's a lot of differences there. And I think that ends up being the conversation more than anything else.

Did your parents have any concern that you were pursuing tour life or music?

The big concern was, like, probably, you know, any immigrant parent is, oh, that's a tough life, or that's a hard job, or that's something that's gonna be impossible to get into. I think they're probably concerned about what is this gonna lead to, and will you have a job, and things like that. Mean, like, I when I wanted to study music, they were like, okay. I mean, he wants to study music. We're gonna let him study music.

But, you know, maybe they encouraged me to be, well, maybe you should get a music education degree instead. But I was a little more bold and didn't wanna do that. They never pushed. Yeah. Yeah.

They never pushed. I think they they had a they had a healthy balance of showing concern and voicing that concern and trying to to lead me in a way, but they knew, I mean, they knew there was only so much that they could do. Was like,

Well, knew that I wanted it gave you the freedom to live your life, which I love that about them. Yes. Was there ever a time where you found that kind of your career path bumped really firmly up against your faith? That's a question we get a lot from our audience, which is, you know, like this generation of young people, a lot of them wanna be YouTubers or influencers or, you know, we hear from parents that feel concerned because their young people are really, not taking the traditional paths of days gone by. Right?

Like, even know in my Sunday school class, we have a lot of professional musicians that are that want to pursue music. And so what we hear from parents is how can we keep them grounded in the church? How can we keep them close to the faith and close to the family? And and there is so much rejection, which I know is something that's really difficult. You know, all of us worry that our kids are not gonna make it for whatever that looks like.

Right? And so I just wonder, was there a time where that actually was part of your experience?

I don't know that I'd be where I am if I didn't get kicked around a little bit, maybe. Okay. Good. So

So so what there were some times where your faith had to kinda you had to reconcile what you believed with the circumstances around you, but that was a good thing.

Yes. Yeah. Yeah. That wrestling, there's there's a beauty that comes out of that.

And did your parents do anything to facilitate that really well? Like, are there lessons that, parents could learn? Because here's what I love about your family. I know your brother who is, a super successful professional in Grand Rapids, but is deeply connected to the church, deeply, you know, connected to the community and parish life and his family. ICU who's living a very different career path, but also super connected to the church.

And there has to be something that happened in your household that bred this deep love for Christ and his church. I want to be able to share, like, what happened that kept you coming back? Like, what was it that your parents did that really allowed you to find beauty in the rub between secular life and you know what I'm saying? Does that make sense?

Yeah. I mean, the simple answer is just how they live. You know what I mean? We grew up witnessing our mom like she would talk to the in the middle of the day. It was like normal, and there were icons in our house.

And we prayed, and she was very intent on, like I said, making sure we were at liturgy. It was just a a part of our life. I hate to simplify it, but love, like, the way they loved me is is everything. It's like when you witness that love and you feel that love. When you're lost or you're maybe being pulled another direction, you don't forget that.

You know? It's visceral. Like, you yeah. I know what I know from watching them. I will say another I know this is about parents, but I can't not get through this with you without mentioning my brother.

Because as a younger sibling, your older sibling or siblings, they almost have a parental role in your life as well.

I think that's true.

Like, massive. I mean, musically, I I look up to my brother and try and be like my brother. Like, when when he when he started chanting

I mean, he's a phenomenal chant.

Yeah. He's an incredible chant. But and he always pulled me in. He never he never was like, no, I'm doing my own thing. Do your own thing.

So when he started playing music, he was like, come on, you're playing music with me. When he started chanting, was like, come on, you're come up to the chanter stand. All I know is how to hold Ise on it. That's fine. Come on.

I think that's probably informed much of how I see you living your life. And I'm not an expert in Joe Ayu, but what I can tell you is you, have a really beautiful way of using your talents to serve the church. So on a Sunday, or even if you're traveling, you're always up to be a part of the choir or to actually serve in, at the chancer stand, but also, you know, where you are particularly gift ed. Like, know with faith tree, you helped us on our vacation bible school. You took all that beautiful music that, Hari Ji Ji Shadid wrote, and you made it into like rock and roll, like fabulous.

So we we if you haven't seen our VBS Super Saints, you should totally check it out. But at the very least, you should download for your kid's parents the album called Super Saints. You can get it wherever you get music, Apple, Spotify, whatever. But what we did was we took this beautiful music that, Kuri Gigi Shadid from Houston, Texas wrote with a guitar in her voice. And he took it and put all these instruments behind it and took it to, like, all his, you know, musician friends, and they made it into something really extraordinary.

So check out that album. But sorry for the shameless plug. But what I love about it is that you said, yes. Let's do this. Like, what do you need, and how can I serve?

These are my gifts, and let's use them to the glory of God.

First, I wanna mention that, I mean, all the heavy lifting was my buddy, Justin Avery, who's fantastic musician. It really is a blessing to have sort of a way to give back. I always felt like I love I absolutely love what I do. I love music. I love working in music.

I'm not like a doctor that you could call and help whatever family in the church or what. I feel like I wish I had more ways to sort of give back. So anytime you have something, that's why it's like, I feel like it's a gift to be able to like, okay, I know who to call. Let's let's work on this thing.

Yeah. Well, actually I love it. I think it's a great example because sometimes I mean, we all have a ministry and God calls all of us participate in the life of the church. But what I learned from you is it doesn't have to be the same. Yeah.

Right? That to me is an exciting opportunity as as a parent to be able to tell my children, like all four of you have different giftings. And for you, it might look one way and for you, it might look another. But I love that you two things about it. I love that you tap into it and are so interested in using your God given gifts to build up the body of Christ.

But I also like how quick and easy you are to say, yes. Let's go. Like, you have a self emptying, which is really inspirational to me because you don't hold back. I know you're gonna get weirded out, but I'm singing your praises. It's true.

This is hilarious, by the way, and it's not lost on me that we are are doing an Orthodox parenting podcast. And as I mean, no one knows because they don't know our conversation, but I was like, Michelle, I am the wrong guy to ask to do this.

No way. But No way.

When you explained that it was more about, like, what my parents taught me along the way Yeah. Stuff like that. I was

So for those of you who are listening, Joe doesn't have kids.

I don't have any kids. I know zero point zero about parenting. I am an uncle, which is one of the greatest gifts in the world, and I love that to death. But I know nothing I know nothing about parenting.

But your parents did something to raise you and your brother in such a way that the church really is at the center of your life and your focus. And even if you're using your gifts in ways that may not be, you know, the traditional career path for some people, if there is such a thing, I think they did an extraordinary job helping you drive it all back to the church and to not just being a church attender, but actually being engaged in the life of the church and in the community of the church, which I wanna hear all day long. How what did they say to you? What did you do? What was your bedtime routine?

Tell me every conversation because we we as parents need that help.

They set a foundation. And I will say that there's a lot there's I mean, I went in wrong directions constantly throughout my life. Their love created an infrastructure that sort of when I was ready to surrender more, I knew where to go.

I love that.

And I knew where love was. Does that make sense?

I love that. No, that's so good, Joe. When you were ready to surrender, you knew where love was and where to go. I love that. Was there ever a time where, you had to decline to be engaged in something, because of your faith?

What I do, which is maybe I should make clear what I do. I am a freelance musician that generally plays for artists or, like, TV shows or whatever it is that I'm accompanying an artist. So k. You know, it's not like I'm a member of the Red Hot Chili Peppers. I'm a hired person to play for an artist.

So a a lot of times they use the term sideman or hired gun or any of these sort of things, but it's basically big

I used the term rock star,

but okay. But a freelance freelance musician. So what happens is because of said artists, sometimes they're they're touring, sometimes they're not. We tend to bounce around between different artists or different tours. So I will say that there have been tours or artists that is that sort of have a more dangerous environment to be in.

Sure. Sure. Whether it be more temptation or maybe a little more toxic of an environment or harder to navigate. And there's others that are fantastic and feel like a little family on the road that moves around and are very open.

Okay.

I love that. After this life experience of doing this with many, many artists and touring with many, many artists and have this, you know, like, moving caravan of people, I'm able to sort of realize what's what's not the best environment for me and what's a great environment for me.

There's a spiritual maturity in that. I think probably starting out, maybe it was a little bit harder to kind of set those guardrails up. Like, oh, can I share a quick story?

Yeah, please.

Okay. So, if you know father Michael Nasser Yes, love because he's in or was in Grand Rapids. So father Michael was a really good friend of mine, and he and his wife were at seminary at Holy Cross. At the same time, I was at the school for the arts at Boston University. I was an actor in their acting program.

And so they were close in proximity. And one day, my first year there, father Michael called me and we had known each other and grown up in Los Angeles area to get he was Orange County, but okay. He was way older than me. Make sure if you hear this story and you know him, you tell him that. But I love this story because he called me one day and he said, my wife and I are coming to your dorm and we're gonna have dinner with you.

And I was like, okay. So he came and they sat down and he asked me, so you're an acting student. I was like, yeah. Yeah. That's what I'm doing.

And he said, well, have you predecided what you're gonna do? And I said, what do you mean? Have I predecided what I'm gonna do? And he's like, well, I mean, I'm sure you're gonna be called to participate in roles that may not align with your faith. So have you decided which ones you'll do or not do?

And I said, well, no. I haven't thought about that. And he goes, oh, well, you have to predecide because it's gonna be so hard in the moment if you have to make that choice. So let's predecide right now. And I was like, what are you talking about?

So he got out a piece of paper and a pencil, and he said, well, let's decide. Like, will you take your clothes off on stage? And I was like, ew. No. And he goes, okay.

Will you play a murderer? And I was like, no. And he said, k. So no Lady Macbeth? I was like, I don't know.

And he goes, well, you need to know. So let's decide now. And so we went methodically, like, step by step by step through all kinds of scenarios. So I kinda knew what was inbounds in my own pursuit of faith and what was probably not inbounds. And I mean, was right.

The time came where some things that were not inbounds kinda came into my purview, and I had to make a decision. But the decision had already been made. So it was so much easier for me because I had predecided. So I I feel like, there are strategies parents can really help their children pursue so they don't just have to wait till they're in the moment, whether it's in a career or in a school setting or a social situation or online or whatever it is, where they really can kind of cultivate an expectation before they actually have to face it. And it seems like your parents did that pretty well.

I mean, there's no question I knew where they they stood on most things. But, again, it it always felt delivered with love. Everything was with love. At no point did I ever feel like a disappointment to them because I was going into a a career of music or or chasing after this dream. My mom was pissed when I was gonna move to LA.

She was like, why are you moving to LA? She just knew. Like, I can't I'm not gonna stop you. I love you through it. But she could openly be like, no.

Why? You're like, why? You know what I mean? And that that was okay. That sort of tug is okay.

And she didn't make your decisions for you. No. Absolutely. Enough love and freedom to, you know, pursue what God called you to do. I love that.

Alright. So I have one last question Please. Before we end our time, which is this. Do you have any advice for parents that perhaps their children are not in alignment with what they would choose for them? Right?

So, you know, we all have our dreams. Like, my kids are gonna grow up and do a, b, or c.

Okay. Let me just start by saying I'm not qualified to give any advice to any parent anywhere, but I will say I

mean, none of us are. None of us are. With that being said

With that being said, for me, again Yeah. I will say that nothing and it's funny. It doesn't always hit. It didn't always hit when I was a teenager or or kid or even in college.

Right.

Sometimes it hits twenty years later. Yeah.

For sure.

Rest both of their souls. They're not living anymore. But there's things that hit long after they passed. You know what I mean? Wow.

So I don't know if they knew this or just had a had a a little more ease to them. But, like, sometimes when you just live it, that it's more profound than sort of overexplaining something. You know what I mean? So there's things that I saw them do and how they were that sort of clicked, like I said, twenty years later.

Like an invitation. Yeah. Like, I want that. Whatever they have, I want that.

Sort of. I think my brother and I are alike in the sense that we definitely get more inspired by something that is sort of delivered with a sense of love behind it. And sort of seeing things from from the positive versus the sort of fire and brimstone y

Yeah. Or shaming You or know? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Sometimes it can scare people away.

Joe, I'm so grateful for you taking time out of your busy schedule. I know that you've got a ton going on, and you always say yes whenever I hit you up for whatever the thing is. You always bring such joy, and you're such a good example of using your whole life and all that you do to glorify God. I'm really I'm blessed to call you my friend.

Oh, I love you. Thank you for having me.

And that'll do it for this week's episode of Orthodox Christian Parenting, where every week we're here to help you raise children who know Christ, who love him, and who, God willing, spend their whole lives trying to be like him. Oh, and hey. Listen. If this episode blessed you, would you consider doing us a favor? Consider leaving a review or sharing it with a friend, and here's why.

When you do that, the algorithm does its thing, and it ends up helping more families like yours find the show. And please don't forget, if you wanna go deeper, you can download this week's free discussion guide in the show notes, or you can go to faithtree.org/parenting. This guide is a free gift to you and your family, and it's just a great opportunity for you to think more deeply about what we've talked about today. You can go through the questions with your spouse, your friends, a godparent, or your community at church. You definitely wanna check it out.

And God willing, we will see you next time.